Rumi: A world poet

In recent years, we observe an increase in the number of scholars and translators of Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi. International attraction to Rumi started to be a phenomenon and we wondered the reasons behind this popularity. K24 interviewed writer and critic Jane Ciabattari, scholar and translator Brad Gooch and Professor Ahmet Targon Karamustafa of University of Maryland on Rumi’s worldwide reception. Brad Gooch is currently working on a Rumi biography to be published by Harper Collins. Jane Ciabattari wrote a widely circulated piece about Rumi’s popularity in the US. Prof. Karamustafa is an expert in social and intellectual history of medieval and early modern Islam in the Middle East and Southwest Asia, as well as in theory and method in the study of religion. Two young scholars from Turkey, Murat Umut İnan of Ankara Social Sciences University and Emine Tuğcu of Başkent University also shared with K24 their opinions about the afterlife of Rumi’s poems, and teachings in popular culture, and the new media.

Brad Gooch: “Rumi is a rare world-class poet”

What has lead you to focus on Rumi's poems at first? How did your interest in Rumi and Sufism started? 

I have loved Rumi’s poetry, since discovering a two-volume edition of his lyric poems, translated by A.J. Arberry, in a friend’s house in Miami, twenty years ago. While reporting for a chapter on “Muslims in New York City” in a book I wrote titled Godtalk, I became part of a Sufi group, and discovered more of Rumi’s life, and the importance of his talks and his epic Masnavi within a rich religious tradition, and his place as a creative spiritual leader.

Rumi's poems are very popular in the world, especially since the last decade. Why do you think Rumi's work endured? 

Rumi combines beauty with truth. He has a vision of life, love, and God, which resonates across languages and denominations, but all communicated in an intimate voice, and in simple and gorgeous imagery.

Do you think there is a difference between Rumi's reception in the US and Europe? If so, what are the reasons behind this?

I think that Rumi became especially seismic in the U.S. with the confluence of the accessible translations of Coleman Barks, in an almost American free-verse idiom, along with a New Age movement that has since morphed into a more general nuanced spiritual searching. I think the interest in religious exploration in the U.S. has been stronger recently than in Europe. Rumi is a rare world-class poet, as he is considered by many to be a saint.

When will the Rumi biography you are working on be published?

The biography should be published in 2016 by Harper.

Could you share with us your process of writing the biography? For example, have you visited Turkey and Iran? Did you find the studies about Rumi sufficient so far? 

I visited Turkey and Iran, as well as Damascus and Aleppo in Syria, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan, in following the course of Rumi’s life. I also spent two summers in intensive Persian language immersion programs at the University of Texas in Austin, and the University of Wisconsin in Madison. I am hoping to write a biography for a general-interest audience, trying to place his life back into in its cultural milieu.

You also translate Rumi’s poems and share your translations in social media. What do you think about the quality of the English translations so far? Are you planning to bring together your translations in a book?

The variety of translations of Rumi in English is wide, from the rigorously scholarly to those approximating the wildness of the beat poets. I am always amazed that somehow something essential about Rumi—a tone, and an attitude—seems to come through the most diverse translations. I have mostly been translating the lines needed for my biography—in Rumi’s case, the poems are often our only hard facts about his life. I then began tweeting lines, because they seem so accessible, and the emphasis in Persian poetry on single lines, like pearls on a string, lends itself to this medium. I am working with an Iranian-American writer, Maryam Mortaz, and eventually we hope to be able to publish entire translations of the ghazal.

I also would like to learn your opinion about the embrace of Rumi and Sufism by popular culture? 

I find that embrace to be a hopeful sign in an often-challenging world. Rumi’s developing vision of a religion of love seems timelier than ever.

In a piece about Rumi's reception in the US, I read that Americans, although they like his poetry, would prefer Rumi were not a Muslim. Considering the current perception about Islam in the world, do you think the moderate, peaceful message in his poetry is important? And do you think he is regarded in the world as a Muslim poet per se, or is he regarded above the boundaries of religions?

I think that American readers are now more fascinated by Rumi as a Muslim poet, or are looking for that piece of the puzzle to be included in their understanding of his life, poetry, and thought. Events of the last fifteen years have made Americans more alert to Central Asia, the Middle East, and Turkey. We are now used to hearing terms such as “Sunni” or “Shia,” “Sharia” or “Caliph” every day in the news. Rumi as the face and voice for a moderate, tolerant, and delightful Islam is a point of interest that might not have been there before. I would say American readers are becoming more sophisticated about Rumi and more open to learning about his world.

Jane Ciabattari: “Rumi's work is profoundly human”

What lead you to focus on Rumi's popularity in your BBC piece? Were you interested in the Sufi tradition or were you a reader of Rumi before writing the piece?

I chose to focus on Rumi for my “Between the Lines” column for BBC.com, which is global in reach, because I was fascinated to learn that Rumi’s books have sold millions of copies in the U.S. As you know, poetry doesn’t usually appeal to a mass audience, but here was a poet born 800 years ago who had become a literary phenomenon in the U.S., and who is also a revered figure throughout the world.

I was first drawn to Rumi’s work some years ago after hearing Robert Bly reading some of his poems, and then reading translations by Coleman Barks (who has translated nearly two dozen volumes since 1976). I was reminded of the power of Rumi’s poems when I heard Barks read one of the newly translated quatrains at the AWP (Association of Writers and Writing Programs) conference in Seattle two years ago. This is a conference attended by some 12,000. It featured a Rumi panel with the poet Anne Waldman and the biographer Brad Gooch, who is writing a biography of Rumi. Listening to them, I was reminded of the power of Rumi’s poems. (The panel was sponsored by Poets House, which presents Rumi in its Poetic Voices of the Muslim World series throughout the US.) This when I heard Barks read one of the newly translated quatrains from Rumi: Soul Fury, which was published last fall:

Find your place and close your eyes,

So your heart can start to see.

Why do you think Rumi's work endured?

Rumi’s work is surprising, playful, and mysterious. He opens doors to pathways that teach us about what it is to be alive. He invites us in. (His use of the rare second person helps with that.) What can be more enduring? His work still feels fresh in the 21^st century. Vendala Vida’s new novel, just published, is titled The Diver’s Clothes Lie Empty, after a Rumi poem, “The Diver’s Clothes Lying Empty”, which includes lines like this: “You’re in your body like a plant is solid in the ground, yet you’re wind.” These images are vivid and profound.

What do you think about the qualities of Rumi’s English translations? Do you have a favourite translator?

I’m most familiar with Coleman Barks’s work. And I’m a regular reader of the ongoing translations by Brad Gooch, who is working with Maryam Martez as part of the process of writing his biography of Rumi. You can read translations like this on Twitter @RumiSecrets:

“Love speaks a hundred different languages.”—Rumi, Masnavi

At the end of your BBC piece you mention that his poetry reminds us how poetry can be a sustaining part of the everyday life. Could you please elaborate on this for us?

Rumi opens doors to pathways that teach us about what it is to be alive. We’re living in a time-pressed world. His work reminds us to take opportunities for contemplation. His is an intimate voice, and I think many feel a personal connection to Rumi that’s rare.

Considering the current perception about Islam in the world, do you think the moderate, peaceful message in his poetry is important? And do you think he is regarded in the world as a Muslim poet or above the boundaries of religions?

I cannot imagine why anyone would prefer Rumi be other than who he was/is. His work is profoundly human.

Prof. Ahmet Targon Karamustafa: "Rumi’s poetry and teachings are somehow separated from their essence"

What do you think is the reason behind Rumi’s popularity in the West, especially in the last decades? Can we consider this phenomenon in relation to the popularity of other mystical traditions?

I attribute this interest to a cultural movement that accelerated especially after 1970s in the US, the New Age, as well as to the related necessity to offer individuals new and exotic cultural productions, considering that today spirituality is affixed to the wheels of consumption economy. (For more on this latest phenomenon, please see the book Selling Spirituality.)

Do you have any concerns about the references to Rumi and Sufi tradition in popular culture? Do you think the afterlife of Rumi separates his poetry and teachings from its essence?

It goes without saying that Rumi’s poetry and teachings are somehow separated from their essence but I am not really concerned about it. Cultural productions have a natural tendency to move away, in some way or other, from their roots and their initial contexts when they are circulated to other spaces. I don’t see in this circulation a reason to worry or be surprised about. If Rumi’s works and related spiritual, intellectual approaches can take root in new spaces, there may indeed be new, interesting improvements.

Social media is also influential in Rumi’s popularity in the last decade. What is your take on the role of social media in the circulation of his poems and teachings?

It is true that social media brought his popularity to a new level qualitatively, but there is not a big difference here in terms of Rumi’s or Sufism’s breaking apart from its essence. In any case, there would be a difference in clothing, context, or even essence.

What do you think about the Rumi translations in English? Do you have a favourite translation that you prefer to use in your courses or that you academically recommend?

It has gradually become harder to generalize since the number of translations into English increased. Among the Masnawi translations Jawid Mojaddedi’s translation, I think, is the most convenient for today’s reader (only the first three volumes are published) but for more serious and educated readers Nicholson’s is still a classical translation. There are two different translations of Fihi ma Fihi and they are both good, but I think they are not read enough. As for the translation of Diwan, it is actually a bit more complicated but Coleman Barks’s translation still leads.

Is there a difference between European and American reception of Rumi?

The main difference between Europe and the US is the difference between the fields of religion and spirituality in these two continents. But it is very hard to generalize; even the scholars in sociology of religion do not reach a consensus on this. The reception in the US can be attributed to the New Age and the special place it has in the American culture.

Are your students interested in Rumi in your tasawwuf courses? Is there a difference between the reception of Rumi in the classroom in terms of international students and Americans?

In my tasawwuf and Sufism courses I didn’t observe a worthwhile difference between the American and international students’ reaction to Rumi. They all are closely interested in Rumi. I attribute this to Rumi’s ability to connect directly and indirectly to his reader especially in his ghazals.

Murat Umut İnan[1]: Rumi provides answers to contemporary quests for spirituality in the liberal world”

I think what makes Rumi so popular among American readers is not just the artistic quality of his poetry, but particularly his mystical charm as a globally acclaimed Sufi. Rumi makes his way to the shelves of American bookstores mostly through his anthologized poetry, which features predominantly the Persian bard’s so-called “ecstatic” verses. American readers connect with Rumi through the all-embracing language of his poetry, a language the poet crafts to express shared values of humanity. As with Rumi’s readers around the globe, the poet becomes in the eyes of his American readers an embodiment of spirituality and peace of mind. It is also interesting to see that Rumi’s popularity in the US coincides with a time when “American spirituality” occupies the headlines while yoga and meditation centres attract a growing number of Americans. Simply a coincidence? I don’t think so. Rumi serves as an inspiring source that provides answers to contemporary quests for spirituality in the liberal world. What also makes Rumi a best-seller is his wide reception in the music industry. In most music stores one can find audio CDs that feature music inspired by his poetry, which, I think, also contributes to the way Rumi becomes a brand name in American popular culture.

Emine Tuğcu[2]: "Rumi’s works and teachings gain a new value against the problems generated by modernity"

The intermingling of culture and politics is like the sign of their eternal unity. In the historical process, the place of literature in society, its function, and its grasp lead to many debates and continue to do so. Technologies that shape the modern mind and especially the rapid distribution of information in the electronic media both reveal the transformation of art and literature into commodities, and also highlight some problems. Rumi, who is regarded as a representative of high culture and attributed holiness and value, is now being discussed in terms of his popularity in social media, which is associated with “low culture”. This is actually a manifestation of this phenomenon. However life in which we experience the differences or similarities between culture and politics leads the individual to an intuitional experience no matter to which nation or religion she belongs. One’s questioning the idea of God, herself, and the world she is living in the main issues of this experience. That is why mysticism encouraging the individual to think about herself and the “other” above an occidentalist or an orientalist perspective, takes on an important role, and the voices arising from humanism such as Rumi can endure despite a time difference of seven centuries. Instead of questioning the place of Rumi’s popularity in popular culture and the transformation of meaning into the material, we should ponder on which societal expectations Rumi responds to, such as the need of an effect that will heal the injustices and the expectations of love, compassion, tolerance, and justice... In this context, Rumi’s works and teachings do not lose anything from their substance, conversely they gain a new value against the problems generated by modernity.